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Re: Where are the Flags ?By Bertasion in Valley of the Sun Casual Club The other day upon the heather fair I hit a flagstick that was not there. I saw it's shadow and heard the clank but where it stood was just a blank. It was not there again today. I wonder when it will come back and stay. Brian
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Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

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subject title Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by AzWiz on Sun 03 Jan 2016, 20:19


KenZarley
10 Posts
07-17-2014 9:06 AM

This is just ONE person's take on a subject that seems to have sparked a firestorm of philosophies, and given some an opportunity to flame others.  I look at this game as a puzzle.  This is what works for ME. If you want to try it out go for it.  If you want to see how the method works for TSG11, or TSG12, or even CSG13 just juggle the numbers a little bit.  Have fun everybody!  And you are not gonna hurt my feelings if you don't like it. My own putting has improved immensely since using this method. 

Contempt before investigation is the sign of a closed mind.  

Have you ever thought that there should be a mathematical relationship between hitting a putt and how far it should roll?  Well, There is, even in WGT.  In college I majored in experimental physics, so I just applied the process to the putting in the game. Hit a putt, watch it roll.  For any given slope of terrain defined as rise over run how far a put rolls should depend on the slope of the green.  Not accounting for second order variables (small effects), I collected data (thousands of putts) of the ratio of hit to roll and then hit:roll for both uphill and down hill putts.  Turns out when You graph the data you end up with a linear relationship. Ratio of Hit:roll vs. slope of green.  And if you remember 8th grade algebra [ y = mx + b],  where y = ratio of Hit:roll and m is a constant, x = variable (slope up or down) and b = is a constant when there is no component dependent upon the variable ( where the line crosses the axis where x=0, that is to say a flat putt ). Then to get how far to hit a putt (as if it were a flat putt), simply multiply the ratio of hit:roll for any given slope by the distance to the hole.


1st a couple definitions.  When I say at the end, hit the putt 10 feet it means (10 / 15 ) or 67% of the 15 foot meter.  So the result is a distance to hit the putt.   
On down hill putts - hit the exact distance of the result.  
On uphill putts add a foot to your computation. (You really don't want to leave an up hill putt short). 
parameters:  
E = elevation change (+) for uphill (-) for downhill in INCHES
D = Actual Distance to hole in FEET.
THE UPHILL PUTT= {[(+ E ) /(12* D )]  * M(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) + B(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) } x D + 1.0 Ft 
THE DOWNHILL PUTT = {[(- E )/ (12* D )] * M(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) + B(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) } x D 
Take the result(s) divide by the appropriate meter ( for my Odyssey putter meters are 15,30, 60 ,100, 150) and voila you have how hard to hit it.
I have plugged there formulas into an excel spreadsheet that I have open while I play - one page for Championship Speed Greens, another for Tournament Speed greens, and another for Very Fast Greens. All that I type in is the Distance to pin and the elevation change.
I can complete the calculations in about 3 seconds. It takes another 20+ seconds to read the break.  If you have a putt with TWO components - one uphill, then one down hill, calculate the components separately then add them together. 
For Very Fast Greens M = 9.3966  and  B = 0.845
For an uphill putt:
HIT = Dist. to Pin in feet *(9.3966 * (elevation change in inches/Distance to pin in feet *12) + 0.845) + 1.0 Ft.
For a down hill putt: 
HIT = Dist. to Pin in feet *(9.3966 * (-1*elevation change in inches/Distance to pin in feet *12) + 0.845)
let me know how it works out - practice at Beth Page Black as the greens are very flat.
If you want to learn the M,s and the B's for Tournament, and Championship greens,  challenge me to a stroke play game and you can see for yourself.  
KenZarley
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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by Beren on Wed 06 Jan 2016, 23:27

If I am reading this right all that is revealed is a formula for very fast greens, not for any of the other green speeds.

For grins I added it to my excel spreadsheet to compare with the current formula that I use, which is covered in more detail here. Since the VFG formula above is filled out, below is what I use for VFG:

Hit=D+(D*-0.15)+E
Note: -0.15 is the green speed factor for VFG

For flat surface putting here are some comparisons between the 2 formulas:
Distance5'10'15'20'30'40'50'
KenZarley4.28.512.716.925.433.842.3
My current formula4.38.512.817.025.534.042.5

Now to compare downhill elevation for a 20 ft putt, from -6 to 0 inches.
20' distance, elevation-6"-5"-4"-3"-2"-1"0"
KenZarley12.21313.814.615.316.116.9
My current formula11121314151617

Uphill for 20ft +1 to +6 inches elevation
20' distance, elevation1"2"3"4"5"6"
KenZarley18.719.520.22121.822.6
My current formula181920212223

Start to see some more differences between the two formulas once elevation is added. I am not sure which would be more accurate, but I think both in reality is not going to be exact, but will get you real close.

Since the KenZarley formula is missing all the other green speeds, I will not be able to compare how it stacks up with Slow, Standard, Fast, Tournament, and Championship speeds.

Personally I will continue to use the one I am familiar with since I have the green speed factor for all of the various green speeds, and it has always got me either in the hole or real close (that is if I did not miss the ding by too much).

Happy Putting,
-Paul (AKA Beren)

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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by AzWiz on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 00:32

Beren wrote:If I am reading this right all that is revealed is a formula for very fast greens, not for any of the other green speeds.

  Personally I will continue to use the one I am familiar with since I have the green speed factor for all of the various green speeds, and it has always got me either in the hole or real close (that is if I did not miss the ding by too much).

Happy Putting,
-Paul (AKA Beren)
 Well it sounds like yours is the one to go with . 
  
  And you are right . What I copy and pasted there seems to be for VF greens . I see that now . Upon a closer look .
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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by AzWiz on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 00:52

BTW Have you looked at all of the putting formulas in this forum ? WGT GAME TIPS & TRICKS
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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by Beren on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 22:16

I have looked at a few of them, but I have not read all of them yet. There is a lot of good information and tips here, I just need to take the time to look at them.

Beren

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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by AzWiz on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 22:20

Beren wrote:I have looked at a few of them, but I have not read all of them yet. There is a lot of good information and tips here, I just need to take the time to look at them.

  It takes a very long time to browse and consider and test and re read the information in our forum . 
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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by AzWiz on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 22:26

Beren wrote:
for grins I added it to my excel spreadsheet to compare with the current formula that I use, which is covered in more detail here. Since the VFG formula above is filled out, below is what I use for VFG:

Hit=D+(D*-0.15)+E
Note: -0.15 is the green speed factor for VFG

For flat surface putting here are some comparisons between the 2 formulas:
Distance5'10'15'20'30'40'50'
KenZarley4.28.512.716.925.433.842.3
My current formula4.38.512.817.025.534.042.5

Now to compare downhill elevation for a 20 ft putt, from -6 to 0 inches.
20' distance, elevation-6"-5"-4"-3"-2"-1"0"
KenZarley12.21313.814.615.316.116.9
My current formula11121314151617

Uphill for 20ft +1 to +6 inches elevation
20' distance, elevation1"2"3"4"5"6"
KenZarley18.719.520.22121.822.6
My current formula181920212223

Start to see some more differences between the two formulas once elevation is added. I am not sure which would be more accurate, but I think both in reality is not going to be exact, but will get you real close.

Personally I will continue to use the one I am familiar with since I have the green speed factor for all of the various green speeds, and it has always got me either in the hole or real close (that is if I did not miss the ding by too much).

Happy Putting,
-Paul (AKA Beren)

  They appear to be as close to identical as you can get . Every shot is different with adjustments ( no matter how miniscule ) . 
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subject title Re: Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Post by Beren on Thu 07 Jan 2016, 22:30

The most difference in the 20' comparison was 1ft. In my experience with larger distances above 20', you have to start backing off a by few percent, and that is going to be true with the KenZarley formula too since it is real close to the one I use.

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